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Anthony Amunategui: Hi and welcome to the Future of Development podcast. My name's Anthony Amunategui, and I'm here to inspire people to find amazing careers in the construction development world. If you like our podcast, please make sure you hit the subscribe button down below. If you really like our podcast, make sure you hit the little bell. Hello and welcome to the Future Development podcast. I'm your host, Anthony Amunategui, and today I'm joined by the amazing Ginny Foster. Ginny is an electrical engineer and a market development manager at Neff Power. She holds several patents in both the United States and in Canada. She is a graduate of St. Louis University. Go Billikens. And she's also a graduate of Washington University. Go Bears. Her background in robotics is unparalleled. It is exciting to talk to her. I hope you guys enjoy this interview with her as well. With that, let's give a big, warm welcome to Ginny. Ginny, welcome to the show. And Ginny, welcome to the show. Glad to have you on today. It's a beautiful day out there. Tell me a little bit about some of the stuff you're working on. And before I get started on that, let's go backwards a little bit. How did you get into robots?
Ginny Foster: Well, thank you for having me on the show and thank you for asking that question. My path to robots is probably a winding path. It's probably quite long, but I'll make it very short. But one of the starting points that I want to start with is, Anthony, there was a story that you mentioned the last time we spoke in which you discovered that you were really good at reading, and I just want to share that I have a very similar story. It took me a really long time to figure out that I was good at math, but once I figured it out, I flew. I selected engineering right out of high school and it was really fun to jump into it. But the math, the math kicked my butt and I ended up taking calculus one three times. And I mean, just the amount of resilience it takes to do that type of repetition is significant. But I really did not enjoy it at the time. Nobody enjoys repeating things over and over again just to get to a certain point. And that's why the book that I want to recommend really resonates with me and I brought my copy with me. It's Mindset by Carol Dweck. And the reason it resonates with me so much is because this book talks about the resilience necessary in order to maintain a growth mindset over time. If I could go back and talk to my student self, I would definitely try to convince myself to read this book before going through all the trials and tribulations of repeating classes. One of my degrees is in electrical engineering, and electrical engineering requires the highest level of math. I've gone through the whole range all the way up through linear algebra and differential equations. And I really got into engineering design. On the engineering design side, it takes exploring what exists and then adding something new to the world that is not already present. And you can actually find my name on several patents both awarded by the United States Patent and Trademark Office, as well as the Canadian Intellectual Property Office.
Anthony Amunategui: That's awesome.
Ginny Foster: Well, thank you. After I graduated, I really found the most joy in my career path as a sales engineer. I started as a sales engineer at a very famous foundry. It's an international foundry, and they're famous because they made the stainless steel castings for the Pentagon Memorial in Washington, DC. It was amazing to be on their team. It was amazing to have mentors who really held me to a high standard, and I'm so grateful to them because it was from there that I learned so much. My current role is at Neff Power. I'm the market development manager at Neff Power. We have an amazing team. We are super extraordinary focused on customer service and we love solving problems for our customers. We are an industrial automation and robotics distributor and we help our customers find the best solutions for their automated processes. We have a team of application and robotics engineers who love teaching how to use robotics.
Anthony Amunategui: That's great. Once you find a passion, right, you find that spot where, like you were talking about when I figured out reading, and by the way, I've got the book. It's sitting by my nightstand. I haven't started that one yet because I've got one more in front of it, but it's literally sitting there and I keep looking at it like, I know that's Ginny's book that she hooked me up with and I love when someone gives me a great book because when I hear your passion for that book, it gets me excited. And if I could go back and talk to my younger self, I would just say, hey, stop wasting your time and all this other-- there's so many opportunities and new technology, new information, and reading was the path, the key to that path for me and finding that magic is amazing. As you got into the engineering and into the whole robotics world and being able to take your ability to communicate with the customer, right, and understand their needs and start to apply that out to the world, the customers can't understand technology, oftentimes. Look, our own people can't understand it. If we look inside some of our-- with our organization, that's one of the number one ways we get killed with growth is that people's inability to take on new technologies out of fear and not understanding and not be able to see it clearly and being able to humanize technology, it's a great skill. I mean, that's what makes you wonderful at the job and being able to hear their needs and understanding the technology and how to apply that, that makes it a really fun place. When you're looking at robotics for a customer, what's the keys to understanding implementing robotics or technology into a system?
Ginny Foster: Well, we do have a set process that we follow in order to provide the absolute right application for our customers. But I really want to separate this answer out into two things. I want to first talk about the low hanging fruit. For everyone out there who thinks that they do have an application and they're ready for robotics, but they're not sure where to start, look for two things. These are your low-hanging fruits. You're going to look for repeatability, and you're also going to look for ergonomics. You're going to look for the tasks that are super repeatable, the ones that you'd perform over and over and over again the exact same way. And you're also going to look for the tasks where it involves a human being moving their joints the same way over and over again because we know that repeated motion over time does result in the ergonomic need for automation.
The second part of this is I want to talk about the steps that we go through, that our robotic engineers walk through with our customers when our customers ask us to help them implement robotics. And the first thing that we do is say, okay, let's identify with you, what is the exact process that you want to automate? And believe it or not, it's in the identification of your problem and defining your problem, that's really where it becomes easy to suggest the right solutions, because once we've identified the problem, then we can say, okay, here's the design layout. Here is how a robot would fit within your exact solution. And then we perform a simulation. We actually let you see what it would look like in your manufacturing facility, on your floor, with your people involved, what it would look like if we just pressed play with a robot in place performing these tasks. And that incorporates a whole bunch of things. It incorporates reach analysis, correct cycle times, it incorporates end of arm tooling or EOAT. And also the design and specification of the payload. So robot cells, the more and more we can talk about robot cells, it gets more and more detailed. There's a lot of requirements in terms of safety. And we especially want to know how it is that you plan on having your team of people interact with the robot.
Anthony Amunategui: Right. Because robots, they're not very touchy feely and they're not really aware that they perform an action, at least today. Their sequencing. Talk about that, because in order to have some spatial requirements, in order to have a robot, it's not something that you just take it and plug and play. You don't just roll the robot into the floor and all of a sudden start executing on something. It takes a lot of thought to make sure that that arm or that device is able to facilitate efficiencies.
Ginny Foster: Right. Okay, I guess I can give an example of a building that I walked through recently. 10 years ago, it was a thought that, okay, robots will completely replace people, and we're going to have an entire factory full of robots, end to end. So therefore, we don't need to have room for people at all. And the way this building was built, in order to access even the individual production lines, you had to walk out the door of one side of the building, go all the way around the outside and come back in the other. There is no room for people in between the production lines. You couldn't maintain the production lines while they were in action. You had to shut the whole thing down, move one aside, squeeze in. There was hardly any room for people and there was definitely no room for robots and definitely no room for safe, collaborative robots. And I really want to talk about the difference between industrial and collaborative in a little bit. If you're a person considering a new building and you say, okay, I do want to incorporate robots into my new building structure, what should I be thinking about? And the requirements and specifications for robotic arms and for autonomous mobile robots are definitely unique. For robotic arms, you need to consider footings. If you're going to support extraordinarily large robotic arms, you need to think about not just the force applied at the base of the robot by the weight or the mass of the robot arm, but you also need to think about the torque, and this is the torque at full payload, full reach, and full velocity. That's a significant amount of torque. The next thing is, if you're going to consider autonomous mobile robots or AMRs. This is truly a cutting edge technology and it involves artificial intelligence, advanced machine vision, and human collaborative robot capabilities. Autonomous mobile robots, they really require several things. They require excellent Wi-Fi signal in order for them to execute their real-time navigation. They need to have automatic doors. We actually recently built a new building in which we realized we needed to have a little bit wider hallway and we needed to have an automatic door that would not impede the path of the AMR as it traveled through our warehouse into our office facility. And then you also need to make sure you have extremely smooth and level floors, very small floor gaps, very low thresholds.
Anthony Amunategui: No, that's great. I mean, they're extremely-- I mean, just being able to be off by a crack in the expansion joint, just the smallest little detail can throw off a mobile bot on a floor. So talk a little bit about that. Some of the specification and why that's so critical, what happens?
Ginny Foster: Yes. It's critical because of the advanced machine vision technology that is on board these autonomous mobile robots. You have 3D cameras and you have lidar and then you also have all of that real time calculation that is happening in order for navigation to occur. For most of these AMRs, they recognize and they can distinguish between a human being and a cart. They can distinguish between a shelf, a pallet, and a forklift, and they can actually determine the best path forward. So unlike AGVs of the past in which you had to have a track embedded in the ground or in the floor in order for this AGV to follow along and if anything impeded that track, it would simply stop. With AMRs, you have that real time navigation calculation happening, and this means that the robot needs to know where it is at all times and in which direction it's moving at all times. That's why they need to have wider aisles. That's why they need to have wider doorways and they do have the capability of navigating around people in real time. We actually perform demos for our customers on a regular basis, using the AMR at our facility here at Neff Power.
Anthony Amunategui: No, that's neat. So the parts that are really kind of tricky, not just the specifications of flooring. When you talk about things like Wi-Fi and the ability to communicate everywhere in the plant, that nothing can be blocking it, I mean, they can't walk into an area that's got no Wi-Fi or loss of Wi-Fi around a corner somewhere. All of that impacts its ability to communicate on a continuous basis. Right?
Ginny Foster: Exactly. We found that sometimes buildings in the past were built in such a way that they created Faraday cages and they actually attenuated signal and it wasn't done intentionally. It just happens. It's either the way that people install shelving or the type of material they choose to go in between the drywall. None of that attenuation of signal is conducive to modern technology, unfortunately. So really, selecting the types of materials you use in order to build the structures and then also including very tight tolerances for smoothness and levelness.
Anthony Amunategui: No, it's great. But I think that's the problem with what happens when we're going into second and third generation buildings is that a lot of that wasn't thought of, right? So as you're thinking about executing on automation for the plant with robots, robotic arms or robotic mobile devices, being able to go through and think about path of travel, communication with them, the ability to foresee the growth of whatever technology you guys are going to continuously improve on. So it starts with-- so where do they start? So I'm a plant manager. I go, I've been tasked with getting a lot more efficient and I come to you and say, Ginny, I need you to make my plant-- Ginny Foster, you got to make my plant a lot more automated. What do I do?
Ginny Foster: Well, first of all, you came to the right place. I am the person at Neff Power who does help all of our customers connect with the right application engineers and the right robotic specialists so that we can talk engineer to engineer and truly solve the problem that you are looking to solve.
Anthony Amunategui: Nice. So what are the first steps we do? Where do you guys start with me? What am I doing on-- so I've come in. I've had meeting one with you. Now I'm an hour away. Now what are we looking at? Because I've been tasked to do this now.
Ginny Foster: Okay. Well, usually we would show you what is in our robot lab just to give you an idea of what is out there. Because if you're coming to us and you're saying, I have no idea what I need to do, please help me, let's say, okay, well, let's show you what is possible. And in our robot lab, right now we have two robots set up. We have an HC10, which is a human, collaborative, 10kg payload collaborative robot, and then we have a GP25, which is a general purpose, 25kg payload industrial robot. And the difference between collaborative and industrial has to do with the way the robot performs while it's in the presence of a human being. A collaborative robot literally means human collaborative. That means a person can hand an object to the robot and vice versa. The person can be in the same area and work safely side by side with the robot. For the industrial robot, industrial means industrial speed, industrial velocity. This is very high speed. It's very high velocity. It's usually for high repetitive processes, and it does require separation between the human and the robot. So a person must stand on the other side of a safety fence while the robot is operating. But, and this is the trick that we want to show you, with the right advanced machine vision solution, you can make an industrial robot behave just like a collaborative robot, and there's two ways of doing this. This is the way we perform live demos. We use speed and separation monitoring, and we also use stop state monitoring. If you align your vision sensors in the room in such a way that you define where the safety zone is and the safety zone is within a certain distance of the industrial robot, as a person walks closer and closer to the robot, the robot will slow down and then come to a complete stop. And it's a safety function, and it is highly useful because it means that you don't have to shut down your line. You don't have to put everything on hold in order to walk up and perform a service or walk up and fix an alignment. You can actually perform all of these maintenance and operation procedures in real time without interrupting your flow.
Anthony Amunategui: What's neat about robots are that it doesn't think about-- it's performing a task. As a human, I get these fears that could pop up. Oh my God, this robot is going to take my job. And I think that's the biggest thing I hear about when I talk about automation or bringing these different technologies into a plant. I get this kick back where people are really worried about, what about my job? I think that when I talk to-- I think I really mention the most is, when cars were invented, you could not have imagined Uber. Well, as robots are being invented, the plant, the jobs that are facilitated in that plant are changing as well, right? There's lots of different positions that are changing, the people that are operating this in the plant. So just talk about that feeling, that feeling of, oh, a robot's taking over my job. There's that fear, but also the excitement about other things that are getting created because of bots that are happening in plants.
Ginny Foster: Right. Anthony, I am really glad that you addressed this because it is somewhat of a controversial statement. And there are some people who do believe that robots are going to replace our jobs. But the truth is that robots do not replace people. Robots replace tasks. And the best example that I can think of, if I were to give a real world example of something that is already in place and established that proves this is otherwise, it's in our homes with home automation. Because we have washing machines, we have dishwashers, we have microwaves, we have dryers, and with all of these machines, you push a button and walk away and you are free to go do something else. And that's what robots do in the industrial world. They allow us to set up an automated process, press a button, walk away, and then go focus on something at which human beings are naturally very good at. We are naturally very creative. We are naturally good at problem solving and we are naturally good at communicating. And I mean, that really ties back into the growth mindset book by Carol Dweck because there's two different mindsets. There's the fixed mindset and there's the growth mindset, right? And the fixed mindset is the one that fears change and says we're incapable of learning, whereas the growth mindset is the one that's open to learning and enjoys challenges and in fact embraces challenges because they help us really reach our full potential. So to that point, robotics is a path to growth, and this is true for individuals as well as humanity as a whole. Robotics is a growing industry and it's full of opportunities for anyone interested in learning.
Anthony Amunategui: I love the piece you just brought up about mindset. There will always be those people who just dig their heels in and don't want to change. But the truth is, you can't stop change. We cannot stop it. It feels like, no, I'm going to be this way. Good luck. Good luck with that one. See how long you can survive in the world. You can be the rock in the river, but at some point the river will-- you may, for a moment, cause a little bit of a bump in it. But somewhere the river will wash and move you. And that is what's happening with growth, and it always has been. The fixed mindset that says, I'm not doing it, that's just a fear, right? That's that living in fear, which I can say oftentimes I've been plagued with it throughout my life as well. I mean, I think everybody goes through parts of their life when you're living in fear and that chance of-- in our society, there certainly are a lot of people that are afraid of changing, of embracing where we're going. The world has never been more exciting. It's never, never, never, never, ever been more exciting than it is right now. The stuff that's happening on this planet today is amazing. Here, the two of us having this podcast. 25 years ago, that would have been a million dollars for us to broadcast back and forth between two people. Maybe TV stations could do it. You and I'd have to go to a TV station, have to communicate to-- I'd have to sit in some booths and they had to get their signals and this would have been a much, much different-- look, you've got a camera, you're sitting in an office. I've got maybe a fancy camera because Eric operates it over there and he's laughing because I can't do it. Today we've got the ability to do things so much faster. And that's what the joy of it is. And as that mindset changes and you feel a little bit less pressure to change, a little bit less pressure that, okay, I'm going to be okay, the universe is always taking care of me. We've always adapted to it. And me trying to stop it, it's never worked. The good old days, when I think back at it, it sounds good because maybe it sounded slower, maybe it-- but just think about it. To communicate with someone, you had to write a letter. It might take me a month to communicate with a parent that was in another state. My mother used to be able to communicate with me multiple times an hour, right? She had something on her mind, multiple times. Or a sister or family members, I could communicate with all day long. And I feel like that's-- it took some change, but she's the one who showed me how to Skype. I had a 77 year old woman teach me how to Skype, and I was like, ah. One, I felt a little funny about that. But two, we're all evolving in that changing. The same thing is happening in our companies, on our plant floors as we make those changes and we continue to adapt. And we ask the question, what else can robots do? There's the game to play, really to embrace and look for, what can robot-- what task can they free me up for so that I can do other things that will be much more productive? So as you look at that and your company continues to grow, where do you see-- what excites you about where the future's going?
Ginny Foster: Well, there are three things that I want to share that I see unfolding right now that will definitely affect us in the next three to five years. So the first thing is that humanity will definitely benefit from robotics through scalability and learning. And I say this because robotics are incredibly scalable and just like anything that we've adopted in the past, like you were mentioning, like Skype, like smart phones, robotics, they're a tool. And the more we learn how to use robots as a tool, we're going to realize how scalable they are because once you apply a robot solution to one particular application, you're going to instantly see, ah, this is how I can apply it to all of these others. And the other aspect of it is the learning, because we're learning not only about ourselves and how much we can push our own limits in terms of acquiring and adapting new skills and learning new technologies, but humanity as a whole. We're learning about ourselves as people through the creation of automated tasks. And so that's just the first thing.
The second thing is that we will definitely see a real world solution for forklifts. And I know you're laughing at this, but the thing is that every year, forklift accidents and injuries, they do cause a significant amount of damage to humans and property. And just about everyone I've talked to does have a forklift accident, either it's someone they know or it's something that they witnessed or it's connected to them in some way, shape, or form. And unfortunately, that just means it's too common of an occurrence. So what we're going to see is the combination of artificial intelligence, advanced machine vision, and human collaborative technology. And that's all coming together with AMRs, autonomous mobile robots. And those are going to be the ones that provide us this real world solution for forklifts in the very near future. So that's the second thing.
Anthony Amunategui: Cool.
Ginny Foster: The third one is that we will be faced with a question and we will be faced with a question that is going to be repeated with increasing frequency throughout a surprising variety of industries. And that question is this. Is it humane to ask a person to do a task that a robot would perform better?
Anthony Amunategui: As we look at these-- I mean, seriously, as we look at these tasks, the speed by which we're growing and we start to continue to go faster and faster and things are getting bigger and bigger. Every single one of us is attached to a cell phone. How do you feel about the augmented human? Are we looking at exoskeletons? Are we looking at-- are they separate from the human or are they connected to the human?
Ginny Foster: This is a really deep question, and I kind of want to take it in a different direction.
Anthony Amunategui: Sure, go, go.
Ginny Foster: So instead of talking about exoskeletons, I want to talk more about smartphones because smartphones have become such an intrinsic part of our everyday lives. It's very difficult to separate us from our smartphones without inducing panic. And we see young children with smartphones and they're whizzes. They know how to go into an app, open an app and create whatever it is that they want to do and close it up again. It's fascinating. So we have actually, I think, unlocked one of those interfaces that really resonates deeply with human nature and our ability to learn, and that's through the smart touch screen. We are seeing smart screen and touch screen technologies implemented in robotics. And it's actually changing the way that we learn and operate robots. You can actually see a video on the Neff Power YouTube channel of one of our robotics engineers who teaches the son of one of our co-workers when he visits, teaches him how to use a smart pendant and how to operate a robot with a smart pendant. It took him all of 35 minutes and 17 seconds to figure out how to fly his toy car around with the robot. And it is so cool because you can actually see the learning process taking effect. You can see how easy it is to learn how to operate a robot with a smart pendant. So the fact that all of this technology is coming to fruition right now, I mean, we are on the cusp of something very great and we're on the cusp of a lot of changes that will happen in the next 5 to 10 years.
Anthony Amunategui: For sure. That piece about the-- in order to program a robot 10 years ago or 5 years ago, it took an engineering degree, right, to be able to understand spatial realities and understanding all the segments of how to move that, how to program it, how to put all those instructions in. Today, with the systems we have in place and as machine learning comes into place, artificial intelligence comes into play, and the speed by which we'll learn and be able to make things adaptable to every scenario, and even the human, right, even as I look at-- as that child was able to look at flying his car around or a new employee comes up to a machine and needs to make some change to it, I think all of that will come into place and make it so much easier for us to operate and to embrace that change. That fear part of us that says, well, there's a robot in my office now. Does that mean it's going to out-work me or outdo me? Am I going to be outclassed here? No, with the interfaces that make it a lot easier for anybody to do this, it makes that leap over to technology a lot easier.
Ginny Foster: Right. It's really leveled the learning curve, and I think it actually is helping people to discover how they can truly show that they're assets to their company and where they work by figuring out how to use the robot in new ways. Because you can have a robot and it can perform one particular task, but that's not the only thing that it's capable of doing and as we learn, as human beings, how to push our own limits, we're also pushing the limits of robotics and technology in general. That's the learning curve right there. We're learning in tandem with our machines.
Anthony Amunategui: Yeah. I say that all the time. As we do this, as we learn and AI, machine learning, robotics come into play, the speed by which we'll continue to transfer and bring on more opportunities for them to apply those technologies and the ease by which we do this makes our comfort level get so much-- we get so much more comfortable and able to look at it and embrace it and continue-- our creativity will move up, right? I mean, once you drop that fear, once I get that fear mindset, I get out of fear and I get into creativity, there's the opportunity that's lost when I'm in fear, right? I drop off my ability to be creative. And that's what's really magical about us human beings is that we are creative and have this ability to continue to come up with new ways, new impactful ways to change these applications.
Ginny Foster: I couldn't have said it better myself.
Anthony Amunategui: There you go. I got one. I got one great one for the day. And it makes it fun. As you look across your company's future the next five years, right, if you're able to predict how-- you get that crystal ball out and you start to look at that and you see the couple of places you've already talked about, if you look at the younger version, the young Ginny and then going, hey, I'm embracing where you're going, what would you say opportunities are for them to jump into the robotics field or into the development world? Where do you see those opportunities pop up?
Ginny Foster: Well, I'm seeing a lot of opportunities show up in companies that are traditionally not as automated. And I mean, yes, they may incorporate some of the traditional categories of industrial automation like electrical control, motion control, safety, structural aluminum, pneumatics, and hydraulics. But what we're seeing is that traditionally these older fields of study are not-- they're not taught in schools anymore, and it's probably due to the fact that that body of knowledge is retiring out of the workforce. And so there's nobody really to pass it on. And that's where a lot of the automation comes into play. That's where a lot more of the electronic solutions come into play. And I mean, this is not a bad thing. And if we embrace it now, we will at least be there to make that handoff from the original method, the original methodology of performing that task, to the new methodology. And we may even have the opportunity to improve upon it.
Anthony Amunategui: No, there's this big swing that everybody went into the electronic technologies, right? But the mechanical side of technology seems to get missed, right? And I know, when I look at my children, I've got one son who just loves-- he went to school for, being that I'm a construction guy, he went to school for construction and he came home from school and he's like, Dad, this isn't for me. I don't want to be a professional on a construction crew. I like working with my hands. I love being in there, working with motors. He loves automobile motor-- he loves engines. He loves working with motors. And I think that that's the exciting part is that there are so many great careers that are going to get created by the robotic world in people that understand the mechanical side of the business as much as the technology side, which is great, but also, all of the stuff that it takes to operate robotic stuff, robotic repairs, all the things it takes. It's going to be physical and there's going to be opportunity for them to really embrace the hands-on stuff that a lot of them are great at. I mean, I certainly was great at that. So.
Ginny Foster: Well, I mean, technically, when you go through engineering, usually you're divided into two separate groups, right? There's the mechanical engineers and then there's the software engineers and then everyone else is some gradient in between. And you get a mechanical engineer with a software engineer coming together to create a solution and the software engineer's like, well, can't you just start over? Well, can't you just turn it off and start it over again? And that's just not-- it's just not an option. But I love that way of thinking.
Anthony Amunategui: Look, we're going to start it my way. Yeah. Getting everybody to dance at the same time is always kind of fun, and you two have already been dancing. Now I got to jump in and dance with you, and it takes a little bit to figure it out. But I love this conversation. I love your passion for the robotic world. Every time we meet and every time we talk, it's been such a passionate love for the business. You exude that passion. And for me, any time someone exudes that kind of passion for anything that we do, is such a great place to be in the world, and I got to tell you, I'm so grateful that you trusted me to jump in on this podcast with me today and I look forward to many, many more of these together. I know your time is valuable and you got a lot going on. Thanks for taking some time today to just sit back and just talk to me a little bit more about the business.
Ginny Foster: Anthony, it's been an absolute honor and a pleasure, and I have so much enjoyed listening to your other podcast interviews that it's such a huge honor for me to be on your show and be interviewed with all of your other guests. Thank you very much for having me. I'm very grateful.
Anthony Amunategui: Thanks. And I look forward. Here. I'm going to tell. When I'm done with the book, I'll text you. I'm excited about the book. It's sitting by my bedside just ready to be devoured, and I am grateful for that. And we'll see you some more. Thank you very much.
Ginny Foster: Well, excellent.
Anthony Amunategui: And keep us updated on all the new stuff that's happening out there. We are always excited to hear at the Future of Development for that. Thank you.
Ginny Foster: Absolutely. Anthony, thank you. And when you finish, let me know so we can talk about it. Because it's so fun.
Anthony Amunategui: I promise. I promise you. You got my word.
Ginny Foster: Awesome.
Anthony Amunategui: All right. Thanks, Ginny. I appreciate it. Thanks for joining us. My name is Anthony Amunategui. Always looking for people to bring insight into the industry, finding ways to inspire people to have amazing careers in the development world. If you liked our podcast, make sure you hit the subscribe button down below. If you really liked our podcast, make sure you hit the little bell. Thanks again for listening. Please share with your friends.